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Posted on Jun 16, 2013 in arguments, blogosphere, Brave Hero Radio, debate, gender, responding to arguments | 92 comments

Brave Hero Radio – David Silverman

Justin Vacula and David Silverman

Justin Vacula and David Silverman

Author note: I am taking a short break from writing about my activism and am posting the archived version of the 6/15/13 episode of Brave Hero Radio with President of American Atheists David Silverman so that people who listened and will listen have a place to freely comment no matter their viewpoints. Stay tuned, tomorrow afternoon and evening, for more discussion about secularism and activism.

The 6/15/13 episode of Brave Hero Radio with President of American Atheists David Silverman is now available.

Listen here!

Show notes:

President of American Atheists David Silverman joins Justin Vacula Saturday, June 15 at 8PM Eastern for discussion about feminism, current events, controversy in the atheist/skeptic communities, and much more.

As always, callers, no matter their viewpoints, are welcome to join the discussion. Call the number on your screen, 718-766-4598, or click the Skype-to-call button on the show’s page when the show goes live to join the caller queue. Callers will be taken only after conversation with David Silverman has concluded.

Listen live, join the live chat, and use the same link following the live broadcast to stream and/or download the archived show.

Opening music is provided by Break music is provided by Phil Giordana.

Like what you hear? Brave Hero Radio depends on support from listeners. Please donate!


Update: The chatroom activity from the show is now available.

Scribd link

BlogTalkRadio link

GoogleDoc link

  • Metalogic42

    Justin, I don’t know if you saw my comment in the live chat, so I’ll repeat it here. I watched both this and your recent conversation with Dan Finke, and both times, you were completely drowned out by a much louder and aggressive voice. I appreciate that you’re always civil, but when you’re dealing with rhetoric you really do need to speak up and be more forceful. As for David Silverman, here is a copy of feedback I’ve sent to Dave Muscato (Public Relations Director for American Atheists) via Twitter:

    “Mr. Silverman acted both unprofessionally and unskeptically. He was not only loud and cursed often, but he talked down to Justin Vacula. He also said he did not need to provide examples to support a claim he made, and wanted to tell Justin about the “good news”.”

    Finally, I’m not sure that was really PZ in the chat. Poe’s Law strikes again.

    • Metalogic42

      Update: looking at PZ’s Twitter feed, it appears it may have been him after all.

      • Richard Sanderson

        Was PZ trolling?

    • ool0n

      LOL, Dan Fincke is a “loud and aggressive voice” … The creator of the civility pledge! You lot are really straining for an explanation of the Vacs failure to perform in these much needed “dialogues”….

      • Karmakin

        Protip: “Civil” doesn’t always mean non-aggressive.

        • ool0n

          Protip: Labelling someone like Dan Fincke “aggressive and “loud” to explain away the failure of the Vac to perform is likely to elicit a few laughs.

          Thank Bod PZ does refuse to get involved, Vacula would be eviscerated. Somewhat like he was by Dave Silverman….

          • Dylan Ringwood

            I think “hysterical” would be a more apt description of both Fincke and Silverman’s debate style.

    • bismarket 1

      Maybe he took lessons from O’Reilly? He stated (several times) that there were people in the movement who he didn’t like, well Dave, i expect that sentiment just became very mutual.

      • I think his point was that while there are people in the movement he doesn’t like, he does not go out of his way to mock them, call them silly names, write about them obsessively, etc. Instead, he said that he simply avoids such people in much the same way many of us avoid trolls.

  • skeptixx

    Wow – how embarrassing for American Atheists – Dave Silverman joined the
    show with both guns blazing and kept reloading without pause, not to mention that he used swear words throughout his comments. He made
    pretty outrageous accusations then said he didn’t have to present
    evidence, found Justin guilty by association, and in a most stunning
    finish offered that Justin had a problem and Dave had the cure plus
    literally offered Justin “the Good News”. (Then didn’t stay on to take
    questions from callers.) He repeatedly said that Justin had to denounce
    others, but wouldn’t engage in discussion about HIM then having to
    denounce those he’s associated with.

    Even if he’s angry and disappointed with Justin, this was not the way to handle it, especially for the president of a national organization.

    Justin’s approach of being civil with everyone was to his disadvantage here; Dave Silverman blasted over him & all objections, using special pleading to dodge rebuttals.

    • ool0n

      Better start a petition for him to be removed… Oh too late! I see Metalogic has started the #SlymeBullies tweet campaign to have him fired below.

      • Metalogic42

        Oh look, it’s ool0n. How cute.

        For the record, I don’t want him fired, nor do I have that power even if I did. That’s up to Dave Muscato. But have fun running back to FTB crowing about how horrible I am. I don’t care, what you and the rest of PZ’s toadies think about me is inconsequential.

        • ool0n

          Just a joke Meta, based on the Slymemythos that everyone is out for Ron Lindsays job because they are criticising him and asking for an apology… I guess you wouldn’t get it.

          (Glad you think I’m a cutie, you’re not so bad yourself)

          • Metalogic42

            Oh I see. When someone calls out your weak attempt to further the threat narrative, it’s suddenly “just a joke”. Oops, I did it again.

            Oh yeah, one more thing. There’s no need to keep mentioning the slymepit here. It has nothing to do with it. More threat narrative. Oops, I did it again.

            • ool0n

              Not slymepit. Slymemythos, that extends beyond the scope of the slymepit itself. As I’m sure you know.

              Anyway better stop harassing you with my bullying “threat narrative” or you may declare yourself a brave hero as well.

              (Also better start adding joke tags to obvious jokes as that is another thing to add to the long list of things pitters don’t comprehend)

              • Metalogic42

                You’re not harassing me. You’re not *capable* of harassing me, because I’m not a thin-skinned little toad who gets the vapors every time someone gives me a nickname on Twitter.

                Oh, look. There you go again. “…pitters don’t comprehend”. But you’re totally not mentioning the pit in practically every comment to make it look like it’s such a terrible place. Oops, I did it again.

                • ool0n

                  Are these the Rich Sandersen “RAGE TEARS” I’ve heard so much about? Certainly very amusing that any pitty mention gets such a response… Dave definitely got up your nose.

                  • Metalogic42

                    Who the fuck is Rich Sandersen?

                    • Richard Sanderson

                      He’s me.

                      Hi guys!

                    • Metalogic42

                      Nope. You’re Richard SandersOn.

                    • ool0n

                      Have a look at his Twitter, will the real Rich Sandersen please stand up?

                    • Richard Sanderson

                      It’s actually an “O”, something which I’m tempted to drop since I share it with the scummy Oolon.

              • Richard Sanderson

                This is highly amusing coming from someone whose spambot was recommended (and used?) by Greg Laden – a brute who sent threats of violence to a fellow blogger, and was then toasted by Stephanie Zvan on the same night.

                These people are bullies, censors, and very nasty, spiteful individuals. Silverman has drunk the Kool Aid and bought into their narrative hook, line and sinker. Eejits such as Oolon follow suit, and enable them.

                • ool0n

                  So Greg has no right to block* people on Twitter because of a transgression? I don’t think much of your concept of justice. Although I’m glad to hear American Atheists are totally on our side now, #winning **

                  * Thinking I’ll have to add Greg as a blocker to annoy Rich
                  ** Must clarify this is a joke as Meta”Logic” has reminded me of the fundamental inability of pittizens to get sarcasm. The feminism espoused by FTBs vs the half-arsed MRA-Sommers-“egalitarian” faux feminism mess of the Slymepit doesn’t need an argument ad-populum to be correct.

                  • Richard Sanderson

                    My point is that you created a spambot that is used and promoted by a known bully. I point this out because I know you get a squeaky bum when this is pointed out.

                    Your association with Laden should be pointed out everytime you make a lazy association of Justin with harassment squads and trolls on the web.

                    It is also important to keep pointing out Stephanie Zvan’s defence and toasting of Laden on the very night of his glorious downfall. We in the movement won’t forget that, and we won’t forget that shortly after, Laden wrote the “anti-harassment” guidelines for one of their shite conferences.

                    Oh, how I chuckled loudly.

                  • Metaillogic42

                    Ohhhhh, you put part of my name in scare quotes. You got me! I’m so oxymoronic!

          • bismarket 1

            Your Funny (not in a good way).

            • ool0n


              • Shadow of a Doubt

                Impressive, this is literally the first time in history ool0n has corrected someone and actually been right. Mark the calendar.

                • ool0n

                  You misunderstand, I was just saying nuh-uh you’re not funny too so nyah nyah… Why would you think anything else :-D

              • bismarket 1

                T/Y I’m always making that silly error, glad YOUR (LOL) out there to pick them up.☮

                • ool0n

                  Hehe glad you took it well, not being totally serious as who cares about spelling! It is a little funny when someone says your stupid or similar tho ;-)

                  • bismarket 1

                    No problem, take it easy ool0n

          • Richard Sanderson

            Ron does not owe an apology. The people who owe apologies are PZ, Watson, Benson, Christina, Laden, Zvan, Silverman, Oolon, Wowbagger, Caine, Spokesgay, Hensley, Marcotte…and all the other bullies and ignorant racists who have attacked people in the atheist/secularist movement.

            And yes, if you make lazy comparisons involving the KKK, you are an ignorant racist.

            • ool0n

              Ron apologised… Should he retract his apology then?

              • Richard Sanderson

                IMO, yes he should, because he has nothing to apologise for. The peoole who need to apologise are people like PZ, Watson, Benson, Zvan, Hensley, and others.

                But guess what…they haven’t been forthcoming.

                They think they can simply continue to bully, shun and intimidate people in the movement.

                And you defend them…

                • ool0n

                  You better start a petition to get him to retract the apology Rich ;-)

                  Don’t want to be in your “movement” where civility is king but a leader of a major organisation attacking a member of the community as from another universe and likening them to North Korea is not apology worthy.

                  • Richard Sanderson

                    Is this the same Rebecca Watson who accuses people of being rapists? Is this the same Rebecca Watson who would have to class herself and many of her fellow Baboons as rapists if she applied her definition to everybody including herself? Is this the same Rebecca Watson who got caught lying about Coffee Loving Skeptic? Is this the same Rebecca Watson who got banned from the JREF forums for sockpuppeting? Is this the same Rebecca Watson who has intimidated and bullied many women in the community into submission and silence? Is this the same Rebecca Watson who has a problem with ageism? Is this the same Rebecca Watson who uses her privilege to bully people at conferences? Is this the same Rebecca Watson who embrasses herself at conferences with her drunken antics, including writing messages on the chests of men?

                    The comparison of Watson to North Korea is an insult to North Korea. I don’t want to be in a movement with bullies such as Rebecca Watson and PZ Myers. You are free to associate with and defend such dregs.

                    • ool0n

                      Big whole pile of tu quoque there Rich, funny thing about it is that the more you have the same amount of relevance is there… None.

                      Can you explain to me how someone Y having committed crime/infraction/morally wrong action X in the past is somehow relevant to X being committed against Y? X is objectively wrong, we would both agree. Explain the secular moral framework where tu quoque is relevant and how that would work.

                    • Richard Sanderson

                      Tu quoque? You seem to be admitting Watson should be offering apologies.

                      Oolon. Would you mind addressing the hypocrisy, instead.

                      Why do the FTBullies demand apologies at the merest dent to their egos, and yet fail to apologise for months of harassment, collusion, bullying, shunning and lying about people?

                      Can you explain to me how someone Y having committed
                      crime/infraction/morally wrong action X in the past is somehow relevant
                      to X being committed against Y?

                      It is relevant because these are the people demanding apologies – and bullying and intimidating people to get them. There is complete denial of their own deeds and crimes. This is sheer hypocrisy.

                    • ool0n

                      Tu quoque is also named the call to hypocrisy. Way of deflecting from the principal. I see you are keeping it up and not addressing why it doesn’t apply given its a logical fallacy… Surely that is more important that your butthurt about imagined “crimes” from the other “side”?

                    • Richard Sanderson

                      The deflection is from you.

                    • ool0n

                      “Nuh-uh” … Isn’t an answer. Surely you can formulate something other than more tu quoque to explain why a fallacy is a valid argument? My position is clear – I reject your position as based on a fallacy, no deflection there until you step up and explain why that is not valid.
                      [Why am I explaining argumentation 101 to you?]

          • David Jones

            ‘that everyone is out for Ron Lindsays job because they are criticising him and asking for an apology’

            Well now…

            ‘When I saw all of the posts berating Ron and the letter-writing campaign to get him fired, I spoke up and wanted to know what the end-game was. What were they hoping to accomplish? I was told that perhaps either Melody or Rebecca could take his place.’


            Wachs could by lying, I suppose. do you think she’s lying, ool0n

            • ool0n

              Yeah I suggested Dave Silverman could take his place as they are both white blokes and they all look the same so no one would notice. Surprised you didn’t find that and use it as proof of people being out for his job :-D

              All becomes very shady when on a “secret” list, really gets those Slyme-conspiracy buffs panting. there have been many comments, like mine, saying X could run CFI, kick out Ron! That does not make it a campaign when the majority of the letters to the CFI board are not demanding his job, just an apology and a commitment to WIS3. Pretty poor campaign if you don’t mention you want him gone to the only people who can accomplish that… Don’cha think? Slymepit sceptics! *rolls eyes*

              [Citation for the hypersceptics who won’t do their own homework -> — says an apology is needed at a minimum, 13 speakers at the conf signed]

              • David Jones

                Pretty poor campaign if you don’t mention you want him gone to the only people who can accomplish that

                Did you miss Svan’s letter to the Board?

                …For these reasons, I feel it is essential that Ron Lindsay at the very least take a leave of absence after this episode, and should probably resign.</blockquote?


                But you didn't. So I don't get your point…if there is one. My question was, do you think Wachs is lying?

                • ool0n

                  Wow what a strong demand for his head! He should *probably* resign, is that the best you could find? I iz a sad panda.

                  I said majority BTW… So one person making a wishy washy “probably” statement does not back up yours and EllenBeths assertion that there is a “…letter-writing campaign to get him fired”.

                  I’m sure EllenBeth with her new found desire to discover the “TRUTH” will set the record straight when its pointed out far from the majority of letters even mention firing.

                  • David Jones

                    what a strong demand for his head! He should *probably* resign

                    Your observation was:

                    if you don’t mention you want him gone to the only people who can accomplish that

                    She clearly did.

                    I said majority BTW

                    I know you did. And I disagree and unlike you, it seems, I have no way of estimating the numbers one way or the other. What we do have is several clear suggestions from the usual suspects that Lindsay should go


                    …I feel it is essential that Ron Lindsay at the very least take a leave of absence after this episode, and should probably resign.


                    ..withdraw his support from CFI over this. I myself am considering doing so if Lindsay does not resign, or at least apologize…

                    It’s tiresome, and so’s your blinkered defence of this, as Silverman would say, ‘shit’.

                    • ool0n

                      Haha so another crappy example –> Marcotte: “…at least apologize”
                      I have no way of estimating the exact numbers either except pretty much everyone was encouraged to post the letters on their blogs to get more to send them. The prominent ones all stop short of an outright call for his head and state they’d settle for apology. Which you are proving for me nicely.

                      So again where is this “campaign”, that implies some group are outright encouraging people to write and demand his resignation or sacking. You’ve provided no evidence so I reject the claim from you and EllenBeth. Sorry but its the sceptical thing to do in the absence of evidence ;)

                    • Richard Sanderson

                      You’ve provided no evidence so I reject the claim from you and
                      EllenBeth. Sorry but its the sceptical thing to do in the absence of
                      evidence ;)

                      There’s the double standards, again. Hyperskeptcism, as the Baboons would put it. Funny how Oolon’s standard for evidence changes like piss in a strong gale.

                      I guess we will be seeing Oolon demand that evidence is produced to show evidence of harassment at conferences! Don’t hold your breath, though.

                    • ool0n

                      Do keep up Rich, the claim is that there is “a letter writing campaign to get Ron fired”. So far the evidence is one letter that clearly states an apology is sufficient and one that says at minimum an apology. Neither states firing is required for them to be happy…

                      So as a CFI board member I’d read those and clearly think that an apology from Ron/CFI would be enough to keep them on side. No? If not then where is the evidence?

                      [Nice try at derailing to your own bugbear about harassment at conferences]

                    • David Jones

                      So far the evidence is one letter that clearly states an

                      2 letters and Wachs’s testimony. Want me to find more letters?

                    • ool0n

                      –> Rejecting a claim is not calling the person a liar. Unless you are calling all theists liars by being an atheist

                      –> Not one letter you have provided says resignation is all that they’d accept. I’m surprised Dana’s doesn’t as I remembered that one as the strongest worded one ->

                      “I’m afraid that if CfI cannot discipline or dismiss Ron Lindsay for his outrageous behavior…”

                      She’d accept “discipline”, good smack on the bottom and move on. So where is your evidence of a *campaign* of letter writing with the *aim* of getting him fired? Ahh I see above… Goal posts moving….

                      “You called it a campaign. not me.”

                      No you proposed this statement from EllenBeth to be accurate ->

                      “…I saw all of the posts berating Ron and the letter-writing campaign to get him fired..”

                      Note the word “campaign” in there. Are you rejecting that part of EllenBeths claim now?

                    • David Jones

                      That’s right. I didn’t call it a campaign. You did. Wachs did. I asked you if you were calling her a liar.

                      How many people acting in concert must there be before you call it a campaign? How much campaigning need they do? How much of that campaigning needs to be done in public?

                      Angles on pin heads.

                      The point is that several notable people, at the same time, called for Lindsay’s resignation in letters to the CFI that were also published online. You simply denied that had happened:

                      Pretty poor campaign if you don’t mention you want him gone to the only people who can accomplish that

                      They did. They have. They ‘ve sent the letters to the CFI. They’ve published them online.

                      When you’re left defending an obviously false remark you might want to think about how you’ve managed to back yourself into that corner.

                    • David Jones
                    • Richard Sanderson

                      You need to speak to bullying campaigners and ask about group dynamics and bullying via privilege and numbers.

                      So as a CFI board member I’d read those and clearly think that an apology from Ron/CFI would be enough to keep them on side. No? If not then where is the evidence?

                      If I was a CFI board member, I’d tell them to get lost, and then get on their knees and apologise for what they have done to people for the past few years.

                    • ool0n

                      Well you need to explain how, despite a co-ordinated “campaign”, CFI have released a statement that says not very much. Apart from they support promoting women’s issues and the obvious statement that women don’t have full equality yet.

                    • Richard Sanderson

                      Don’t need to explain anything. The CFI have obviously listened to the wider community and used their common sense. They have rejected the BS coming from FTB, erm sorry, the Baboons, and effectively told them to f-off.

                      About time too.

                      Butthurt, Oolon?

                    • Richard Sanderson

                      Oolon doubles down and goes into denial mode when faced with the evidence.


                    • David Jones

                      I have no way of estimating the exact numbers either

                      No, so shall we talk about what is in the public domain rather than your imagination?

                      where is this “campaign”

                      You called it a campaign. not me. I’ve just pointed out several calls for his resignation and Wachs relaying the remark that Hensley or Watson could take it on. As Wachs says there are these backchannels I wouldn’t be surprised if the calls were coordinated.

                      so I reject the claim from you and EllenBeth

                      Ahhhh….so you are calling her a liar.

                    • ool0n

                      Replied below … You proposed EllenBeths statement as accurate, that mentioned campaign to get him fired not me. Reply here or it’ll get too complicated->

              • Richard Sanderson

                Where are the apologies from the Baboons, Oolon?

                • ool0n

                  They apologised… You just can’t speak Baboon… Oook Ook OOK!
                  [translation: Even Baboons know tu quoque is a fallacy]

                  • Richard Sanderson

                    Where are the apologies from the Baboons, Oolon? Come on, now.

            • Richard Sanderson

              EllenBeth’s article certainly reveals the dark side of the FTBullies. Silverman will be feeling very sheepish if he gets round to readin it.

              I loe the fact that Zvan is hopping mad about it, essentially telling EBW to shut her mouth and be nice little girl. People like PZ, Zvan, Watson, Benson, et al really get off on controlling the behaviour of women.

    • I appreciated that Justin was able to remain calm and rational throughout the interaction. It couldn’t have been easy to do, but I think it was the right move in this context. He sounded like someone who was trying to have a reasonable conversation.

    • Dave

      It reminded me alot of an interview with o reilly. ONe guy shouting like a 6 foot child, the other trying to remain calm.

      I had to take breaks every few minutes because of how worked up the constant illogic was getting me. The only people who bring that out of me are peopel from fox news.

      It’s kindof crazy how many of his own damn rules silverman breaks.

      He refused to offer evidence, and says there are things

      He bashed justin for ‘just wanting attention’ when most of the xmas time banners silverman sets up were all about trolling christians for attention. And using far more inflammatory language than “we heart justin”

      And I love the utter dishonesty of the ‘denounce the shit’ comment. A convenient buzzword that sounds nice but doesn’t actually say anything, then makes demands of justin that he wouldn’t make of anyone else.

      And the godwinning was just pathetic.

    • bismarket 1

      If it was PZ lurking in the chat, that’s quite rare, i’m wondering if he was made aware beforehand of what/how Dave Silverman was going to approach this “Interview”?

  • Dylan Ringwood

    Mr Silverman states, early on in the discussion, that he believes men are not able to see the world as women. This is the idea that some people are blinded by their “privilege” and as such they cannot see the world accurately. I find this entire concept antithetical to a rational scientific world view. He is essentially saying that no amount of evidence could convince him, because he is innately, by virtue of his gender, incapable of apprehending reality regarding the opression of women in the secular community.

    • Karmakin

      Horribly sexist statement. Reinforces the notion that men and women are entirely separate entities.

    • MosesZD

      That’s because he’s bought off into the ‘100% cultural training’ paradigm established by gender feminism. Which is, btw, not shared by EQUITY feminism.

      • Karmakin

        However, that’s only HALF the story.

        The real problem with this, and it’s the one we should be pounding, isn’t that they see gender as mostly or even entirely a cultural construct. It’s that they see these cultural constructs as being predictive or prescriptive onto people’s behaviors.

        Someone who thinks that it’s 100% biological, may in fact have the position that while it is biological, there are enough variances in play to result in that you can’t take those non-reproductive gender traits and assume with accuracy the behavior of a given person.

        Now most reasonable people, I think, would take the notion that it’s a combination of biological and cultural. We might disagree about how much of A and how much of B…also the idea that in a lot of cases the cultural springs from the biological….but still. The debate is actually how prescriptive we see it.

        Equity feminism believes that it’s not, gender feminism believes that it is. The whole “privilege” thing is a good example of this.

    • Richard Sanderson

      “Mr Silverman states, early on in the discussion, that he believes men are not able to see the world as women.”

      Indeed. I suggest Dave shuts up and listens to Abbie Smith, Stef McGraw, Maria Maltseva, Renee Hendricks, EllenBeth Wachs, Karla Porter, Paula Kirby, and many, many others.

      He might not be so ignorant after doing that.

  • Dylan Ringwood

    So “the shit” is exemplified by a photoshop of the FTB gang holding placards that spells out “I heart Justin.” Oh the humanity.

    • skeptixx

      Yeah the idea that satire of actions & words is somehow part of the
      “shit” was a head-scratcher.

    • MosesZD

      I thought that was one of the funniest things I’ve seen in this particular drama. Funny thing is though, I when I first saw it I thought THEY were trolling JV… That they were mocking him.
      Someone else explained it. But I had, seeing the photo fourth-hand, no way to know the backstory and had a coin-toss chance of getting it ‘right.’

    • Richard Sanderson

      Compare that “harassment” to the bullying on Pharyngula recently towards EllenBeth Wachs.

      The Baboons and Pharyngulites really do hate women, and Dave’s remarks comparing women to the KKK exemplify this.

      I wonder what victims of the KKK, think?

    • Dave

      You know, it kindof reminds me of conservative islam. Both groups lose their shit when presented with cartoons.

  • Dylan Ringwood

    “I want you to hear the good news.”
    LOL That was so funny… and Silverman didn’t even see the irony.

  • Tyler

    Far from an interesting conversation. Justin though, man, you’ve gotta come out with a stronger script if you actually want a chance to make your point during these discussions. You’re being overwhelmed by professionals who are very good speakers with very strong convictions that you are in the wrong in the particular situations being discussed.

    Lettuce be cereal, you are less valuable to the movement than the people who are against you. They are not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. They are not going to scour twitter looking for specifics to argue with you about. You’re not in a good position, to be frank. But I do think you have some interesting things to say and that you’ve exposed some hypocrisy behind the closed doors here. I’d just like to see whatever points you have actually vocalized in a way that makes them seem worthy of discussion, which they certainly didn’t here.

    Mr. Silverman was definitely enthusiastic, but I don’t think he was necessarily unprofessional given his own perception of what’s going on. Whether that perception is accurate is another question, but I think his reaction was more-or-less to be expected. He’s not overly concerned with your side of the story. But if you can’t make a really good case for why he should be, maybe think twice about having guests like him on in the first place.

    • Edward Gemmer

      Yeah Vacula – you are doing this whole bullying thing wrong by having people on your show and letting them talk. Only misogynists let people do that.

  • Nogs

    People like Silverman are great, when you are already talking to people who agree with you. They are also great when put against a similar opponent (the exchanges with O’Reilly for example). But when you are talking to anyone else, they are terrible for your cause. He just seems “dicky” and overly aggressive to me throughout, and that kind of attitude is going to make many people just stop listening to him regardless of his points. If people are on the fence about getting into the community I earnestly hope that he is not one of the people they encounter first, because I don’t think many will continue after.

    I think you did fine, and letting him basically hang himself with his attitude is a completely valid tactic.

  • Edward Gemmer

    Question: Why wasn’t Karla part of the show?

    • skeptixx

      Karla was on after the break. Bigger question IMO is why Silverman didn’t stay on the line to take questions from callers in the 2nd half. His leaving made it look like a drive-by dumping.

      • Dave

        Look like? It was.

        • I’ve seen flaming bags of dog shit left on doorsteps with more grace and subtlety.

  • bismarket 1

    think i’m still in shock from what i heard this morning (UK) when i
    awoke. My previous opinion of Mr Silverman & his capacity for
    rationality has taken a massive hit. I kind of hope this is a dream or
    some elaborate joke. He was (almost) as patronising
    as PZ Myers & his refusal to condemn any of the actions of the
    FtB/A+ spoke volumes to anyone with an open & reasonable take on
    what’s been happening in the community. The best he could do was “It’s
    childish” & “I don’t care who started it”…WELL HE SHOULD FUCKING
    CARE, if his friends want to go after people & defame & slander
    them they should expect push-back, he wants us all to be allies, where
    was he when Carrier was spouting his “With us or against us shit”
    Hypocrisy, the christians certainly seem to have got that message
    through to him.

    • Richard Sanderson

      Yes. Silverman’s reputation has taken a bit of a battering.

  • Scott Marshall

    Dave spoke as if the individuals reasonably skeptical of A+ and FTB were the same as the trolls making the disgusting emails and such. He’s drinking the “us vs. them” and “with us or against us” Kool-Aid. E.g. instead of agreeing that all disgusting comments were abhorrent, he refused to see those made by his side as relevant at all to the conversation. I suspect the A+/FTB people got to him first and he’s cowered by their witch-hunt tactics. Certainly a poor showing of critical thinking.

  • “You’re denying the harassment problem in the movement.” More sweeping generalizations about the movement despite Oolon insisting that these generalizations don’t happen (including JM calling it a boy’s club, RW saying it’s not safe at conferences, etc). “Oh, but so and so said on this blog one time that they weren’t making sweeping generalizations, they only attribute the sexism to a tiny minority!” Saying one thing and doing another.

  • Richard Sanderson

    I have to say that Dave Silverman (and PZ Myers and his Baboon followers) have trivialised the issue of racism and the KKK.

    They have demeaned Black Americans by making such a crass comparison. But hey, these are the people who make comparisons between Nazis and TAM, and then try to deny it.

    Silverman (and PZ) should get on their knees and make a profuse apology.

  • Richard Sanderson

    I wonder what Silverman makes of the behaviour of PZ and his Baboons towards EllenBeth Wachs?

    The people being bullied and forced out of the movement are women facing intimidation from FreeThoughtBlogs, Skepchick, etc. Several women have remarked how they are afraid of voicing their opinion for fear of upsetting Rebecca Watson.

    Seriously, Silverman owes apologies. he should also clarify his remarks about the KKK. if not, I have to view his ignorance on the matter as a sign of racism. He shouldn’t be too disturbed about that label, after all, PZ’s followers announced that they themselves are racist.