• 5 Best Books To De-Convert A Christian

    books-pileThere are a lot of great books written by atheist authors over the past few years. While I can’t say that reading any one particular book was the key to my own de-conversion from Judaism to atheism, I have heard from a lot of fellow atheists about how this book or that really got them thinking critically about religion and lead to their de-conversion. None of those books are going to be on my list.

    Not only are none of the books that fellow atheists have testified to me as the key to their de-conversions going to be on my list, but not even all of the books on my list were even written by atheists. How crazy is that? Here we go in reverse order for dramatic affect.

    5. A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss – This is a great book and yes, Krauss is definitely an atheist. This book is great for fundamentalists because it really lays out the evidence for the Big Bang Theory and destroys the First Cause Argument and the Argument by Design. That’s two of the big religious arguments out there. Of course there are Christians and other religious believers who already accept the Big Bang and modern science. This book is still really educational, but probably won’t sway the faith of liberal believers. I really do love how this book explains how we know what we know and that is something fundamental religious believers are really going to have to struggle with.

    4. The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris – Atheists authors are starting out strong on this list. This book destroys C.S. Lewis’s Moral Law Giver Argument. It lays the groundwork for what secular morality is all about. Even if you don’t buy into the premise that science informs our understanding of morality, Harris reminds us of how we actually think about right and wrong. Harris may be off the rails on lots of other issues, but he nails it on this one.

    3. Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman – Okay, Ehrman is sort of an atheist too (he actually considers himself to be an agnostic), but he did write an apologetic type book supporting the historicity of Jesus. Still, even though that book was pretty crappy, Misquoting Jesus is pretty good. This book undermines the credibility of the Gospels. If we can’t trust the Gospel account of Jesus’s teachings, then what account is there to trust? This book also exposes the fact that most religious leaders know this information and are purposefully keeping it a secret from their flock.

    2. The Bible: A Biography by Karen Armstrong – Not an atheist! Armstrong is a former Catholic current… Spiritual Christian-lite? She also wrote an apologetic style book defending her belief in a deity. As ridiculous as that book may be, it is not the book that I am encouraging Christians to read today. The Bible: A Biography really goes into how the Old Testament was put together. Between Armstrong and Ehrman, the Bible is toast!

    1. The King James Bible by multiple anonymous authors – I’m pretty sure none of the authors were atheists but I could be wrong. Let me state the obvious here. I think that Christians should read their Bibles cover-to-cover. I’m convinced that it is the most boring book ever written and I dare any Christian to make it through it. What is even more surprising is that it is filled with walking talking snakes, a wrathful deity, Nazi-like Romans, floods, monsters, and zombies and is still the most boring book on the planet. Not only that, it is ridiculously ridiculous. Yeah, that is how ridiculous the Bible is. You can multiply the ridiculousness by ridiculousness. I can’t believe anyone can actually believe this book. It is simply unbelievable.

    I know a lot of Christians think they have read the Bible, but they really haven’t. I can’t imagine them sitting up in bed with “The Good Book” the way they do with a novel. No, they generally read a few verses here and there as “assignments” for Church or Bible Study – probably from a more sanitized edition. Then they have some religious leader tell them what that chapter actually meant because the Bible itself doesn’t really make any sense, is full of contradictions, is ridiculously ridiculous, and is boring as fuck! There is simply no way anyone can sit down and read this thing page-by-page and still believe it is in any way holy.

    Bonus Book: How “God” Works: A Logical Inquiry on Faith by Marshall Brain — Simply put, this book is AWESOME!!! Brain even lays out a empirical test he discovered in the Bible to disprove God. That’s all I am going to say about that. Check it out!

    Other Interesting Books: I have had the pleasure of interviewing and/or reviewing several interesting books (mostly, but now entirely from atheist authors). You can check out those articles HERE.

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    Category: Arguments Against ReligionChristianityDe-Convertionimportant


    Article by: Staks Rosch

    Staks Rosch is a writer for the Skeptic Ink Network & Huffington Post, and is also a freelance writer for Publishers Weekly. Currently he serves as the head of the Philadelphia Coalition of Reason and is a stay-at-home dad.


    1. Not sure which of Ehrman’s books your talking about, but guess it might be “Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium.” While he does argue for a historic figure, he actually views him in true context of the 1st Century and goes a long way to contradict many of the later changes made to the NT. In his view, he was talking about a “kingdom of god” that was both imminent and to be instituted right there in Palestine. In other words, he went to his execution believing that his death would lead to an immediate return of a god-like bringer of justice, etc. I don’t know if I would call that apologetic. I think everyone benefits by reading Ehrman and he is an atheist, although his turning point came as a result of looking at the issue of pain and how could a person believe in a god when looking at our flawed planet (more or less).

      Pretty much agree with the rest (especially the KJV …. it even has unicorns in it …. how utterly ridiculous!). I would, however, include Daniel Dennet’s “Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon.”

      Amongst many things, Dennet discusses cargo cults, those religions
      invented by Pacific islanders in response to their first encounters with
      visitors from the technologically advanced West. During the Second
      World War, the construction of an American air bases on these
      island aroused the curiosity islanders who literally had no previous contact with us. To them, we were gods and were worshiped as such. This is just one of the many illustrations that Dennet makes in a easily-read book.

      1. The article blatantly specified that they were talking about Bart Ehrman’s book “Misquoting Jesus”. I have no idea how/why you couldn’t figure that out.

    2. Here’s my own list of 5 books I like to recommend; not just to Christians, but to theists in general (and atheists – they’re really good reads!)

      1) W.V. Quine – Methods of Logic
      2) Erik Wielenberg – Value and Virtue in a Godless Universe
      3) J.L. Schellenberg – Divine Hiddenness and Human Reason
      4) J.H. Sobel – Logic and Theism
      5) Graham Oppy – Arguing about Gods

    3. The hardest thing about promoting an argument by offering someone a book to read is getting them to actually read the book. I can’t count the number of times people have offered me a book to read to make their argument for them but I can count the number of times I’ve read one and do it on the fingers of one hand. One way to up the odds of getting someone to read a book with an opposing (and therefore unwelcome) viewpoint is by making them aware it’s both short and an easy read. “Letter to a Christian Nation” by Sam Harris fits the bill best in my opinion and it has the additional virtue of containing really devastating arguments. I don’t feel the need to recommend another four. If they read that one, they’ll find others on their own.

      1. That’s a great point Hugh and a great book for all the reasons you described. Here is an interesting story for you. A number of years ago, I was working for a company and had to travel to various venders. One of the venders I met with regularly was a Fundamentalist Christian. We would often talk about politics and religion together and debate the issues as friends. One year he bought me “The Case for Christ” for Christmas. I read it. The following year, I bought him Harris’s “Letter to a Christian Nation” and guess what? Despite being a much shorter book than the one he gave me, he still didn’t read it. I did try and I would definitely recommend “Letter” as a great book to give a lazy Christian because it is pretty short and a Christian might just pick it up and read a little bit just out of curiosity. Good pick!

      2. “Letter to a Christian Nation” is a great book in this scenario. I also recommend just about anything from Bart D. Ehrman, as well as “The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster” by Bobby Henderson.

        Oddly, I also include Hugh Ross’s book “The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Latest Scientific Discoveries Reveal God”. Why? Because he scientifically refutes every possible argument for a young earth. His error is that he does so then claims that the long odds toward our universe even existing actually “prove” God.

        I once had a former high school acquaintance suggest that I read Lew White’s “The Return of Yahusha”, because he thought it would rock my world. The book was amazingly horrible. The author never even TRIED to prove anything. He just asserted his opinions. It was laughable. The guy couldn’t even maintain the same font or font size in the book.

    4. “Ye Shall Be As Gods” and “Man For Himself” by Erich Fromm did it for me. And “Psychoanalysis and Religion” also by Fromm is icing on the cake.

      1. Already reading about “Ye Shall Be As Gods” and… the description alone is crazy to suggest that secularism & humanism are a ‘disease’ that came in the form of the words of the demonic snake in the garden of eve. Was it really that crazy?

    5. Lawrences Krause’s book is titled “A Universe from Nothing”. It’s an important distigtion because of the likely possibilty that the universe we live in is not the only one that ever has been, is, or will be.

    6. Lawrences Krause’s book is titled “A Universe from Nothing”. It’s an important distinction because of the likely possibility that the universe we live in is not the only one that ever has been, is, or will be.

      1. Depends on what that something is. In the case if a ridiculous and dangerous religion, it is better to not believe and be right.

    7. If the sole goal is convincing theists they are wrong I can’t recommend “Why I Am Not a Christian: Four Conclusive Reasons to Reject the Faith” by Richard Carrier highly enough. It is incredibly concise, relentlessly logical (presenting a lot of ‘if it is the case this then it is necessarily not the case that’ style arguments.) Also, whereas a lot of people have listed the various crimes and shenanigans of religious types this usually fails to be persuasive as the actions can be dismissed as incorrect or regrettable. Carrier strikes at a more profound level while avoiding the hazy vagueness that generally accompanies metaphysical discussions. Just my two cents.

    8. Hey Mr. Rosch,

      I wanted to make a comment on the King James Bible. Personally, I don’t read the King James Bible, but rather the ESV, which is a version of the bible which is still extremely similar to the original texts, but is written in more modern language. So, when I make this comment, know that I am defending the bible as a whole, and not just the King James Version.

      First, the Bible isn’t meant to be read as a novel, but rather as a book to study and show the attributes of God and how Christians are to act in light of His attributes. I don’t mean that it is a textbook, as it is to still be enjoyed, and yes, it does have acts in it that may seem impossible to believe. But each of these acts didn’t occur to make the book interesting to us, but to show how interesting God is.

      Second, as a Christian, I enjoy reading the Bible, and don’t find it to be boring. I believe this to be the work of the Holy Spirit, as He helps illuminate the text and guides me in my understanding of it. I think that I would find some of the drier parts of the Bible to be boring without the Holy Spirit, ad because of this, I am thankful of the Spirit.

      You may not like the point about the Holy Spirit, and I completely understand that, as I can’t expect you to understand my view on it, as you aren’t a Christian. I am not attempting to start an argument; I just want to show how a Christian views the Bible, and how we find it possible to enjoy it. I enjoy reading the Bible because I enjoy God, and want to know as much about Him as possible.

      Thank you for allowing me to comment.

      1. Thank you for your comment Cody. While I must admit that I was never a Christian (I was raised Jewish), many atheists were raised Christian and a good number were very devote Christians at that. Several of my friends were even members of the clergy. They read the Bible believing that the Holy Spirit was guiding them. But the reality is that their religious leaders, parents, community were guiding them.

        To say that there are some things in the Bible that seem impossible is an understatement. Most Christians don’t realize that there are Zombies in the Bible. You know that, right? When Jesus died on the cross, the Earth opened up and people rose from their graves and walked around the cities… and yet no one seemed to mention that in the history books. Strange, it is almost as if it never actually happened. 😉

      1. LMAO. Really? My “Atheism 101” series is down, but I wrote a great article about what happened every time science tested the power of prayer. It short, it doesn’t really work. in fact, every time science has tested a religious claim, the religious claim has shown to be bullshit.

      2. Science proved the bible is right ? Since when ? No science did not prove the bible is right. Yes places, rituals, symbols, some wars, some historical figures were incorporated into the stories so what, it does not make it right let alone a historical book. Nice try Nita but wrong. We know where the concept of God Yaweh comes from and that is modeled after dying and rising sun God of the pagans. God did not do, said, inspired, created or commanded anything in ancient times. The bible is not inspired in any way shape or form because of a God. Myth characters do not exist. Most of the bible characters are fictional anyway like Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jonah, Samson, Joseph, Moses , Joshua, Jesus, apostles etc. Non of the stories happened in history. Yea the exile to babylon and destruction by romans of Jerusalem etc. happened but thats about it. Study astrotheology.

      1. Best quote ever! lol You use science everyday!!! The internet is a result of science. Your heating system is a result of science. Almost everything you use and do is made possible by science. Scientific medical research saves countless lives a minute, but fuck science. It’s stupid. lol.

    9. I’m just a kid. I was looking for research on my laptop on my claim, it is about God in school. Every time i mention him to a friend a teacher overhears, and says God is not allowed in school. But as you can tell i stand strongly by what i believe in.

      1. Your teacher was wrong. If you were talking about your religion quietly with a friend in a non-disruptive manner, I don’t see the problem. If your teacher said, “no talking…” and you were talking then your teacher could ask you to stop, but not because of the subject matter. On the other hand, if you were preaching to the class, then your teacher could ask you to stop because you are being disruptive. But if you are reporting this accurately and you were just talking quietly with a friend, then your teacher would be in the wrong. If this happens again, contact your local ACLU and they will help you.

      2. Well our condolences to that KID. You were conditioned in that believe by your parents, priest or pastors perhaps ? We call that brainwashing. The bible is mythology / astrotheology look it up and find out the truth for you have no clue.

    10. Ok i see, but she specifically said, “You are not allowed to talk about God in school.”(5th grade) Then again, this year in 7th grade one of my teachers said, “You are not allowed to talk about God in school, it always ends badly.”

      1. Those teachers are wrong. Contact your local ACLU and they will let you know your rights in this regard. Even though I think belief in God is ridiculous, I will have no problem writing a letter to your teachers explaining the Separation of Church and State to your teachers if you would like. Please e-mail me the details (their names, the name of the school, your name, and their e-mail or snail mail addresses.

      1. You are the one telling people you don’t know that they deserve to be tortured for all eternity, but I’m the jerk for offering to help you defend your faith (which I don’t believe in) against your teachers who don’t understand the separation of church and state. Okay.

        Look, I think you are a nice person who has been indoctrinated (through no fault of your own) into believing some pretty ridiculous things on insufficient evidence. I want you to think critically about the things you believe. Because the magic painting is really out there. i mean there are ridiculous beliefs and then there are magic paintings. I mean why would the nation’s space agency test a religious painting? Does that make sense to you? as far as I can tell, no one is claiming that the painting is alien or anything. Then maybe it might make sense.

      2. Well do some study about your religion and the origin of it and find out the truth for you have no clue what you are talking about. For now you are a jerk ! Secondly proof God exist. See this you get when kids are brainwashed by christian parents.. so sad so sad.

    11. Yeah it does make sense, they are trying to find answers about God. And it is not “magic” but something good. And as i said I’m a kid, and I can handle my teachers without you bopping in, I’m sure the is a good person inside.

      1. 93% of scientists don’t believe in a personal deity. NASA is an institution what specializes in space exploration. They neither have the interest, budget, or expertise to investigate magic paintings. So right from the start, when I hear a claim that this, that NASA scientists proved this painting has a heart beat, my reaction is obvious skepticism. Okay, my reaction is more like, is this an Onion article? It makes no sense. The fact that no one (including the guy who wrote a slideshow presentation and posted it on an academic website) can provide these test results is very telling. I am actually surprised Snopes doesn’t have an entry for this.

        You are a kid and my point here is that even though I disagree with you, I am willing to fight in favor of your right to have a view i disagree with. Would you be willing to fight for the rights of atheists in the same way? You read the post I made about the high school student in RI and how much hate she received from “good” Christian folks.

    12. Interesting article! It is always fascinating to me to hear opinions from any point of view. I am a Christian and yes, I’ve read what’s considered the entire cannon of scripture. Sometimes I read it a few verses at a time like you said, and sometimes several chapters or a book at a time. If you’re bored sometime read the book of Esther. That’s about as good of a plot as any novel gets!:) Some of the Bible is obviously much more dry than that, but when you believe that it did happen, right down to talking snakes and people coming out of graves… That makes for a pretty thrilling book! You’re right, though. I should read it more throughly more often. One thing that’s pretty cool about the Bible is how the scientific facts about the earth’s shape, etc., were written long before proven accurate by the brilliant men of later years. I’m curious if you’ve ever read the whole thing?

      1. So what you are telling me is that you have never actually sat down and read the Bible cover-to-cover like you would any other book. Instead, you have by your own admission “a few verse at a time” and “sometimes several chapters or a book at a time.” So here is a challenge for you. Sit down and start reading the Bible. Start with Genesis and go page-by-page until you finish Revelations. It doesn’t have to be all in one sitting. But don’t skip around and done go weeks in between. I have sat down and read the Bible cover-to-cover. So I know just how boring much of it actually it. I also know there there are zombies in the Bible. Yeah, zombies! I bet you didn’t cover that in Bible Study.

        For the record, there is no science in the Bible. Yeah, Jesus said that he saw all four corners of the Earth and since we all know that spheres have corners, I guess the Bible really nailed that one. lol. Seriously though, there were many cultures at that time that had theorized that the Earth was a sphere. This wasn’t some miraculous revelation that only a sky god could figure out. All one had to do was look at an eclipse and say, “hey, that looks like a shadow to me.” In fact, many cultures did exactly that well before Jesus claimed to have seen all four corners of the Earth.

        Oh, and Jesus was real good at predicting the future too. He correctly predicted that the world would come to an end before a single generation passed. Oops.

        1. Your series of comments to Jane seem like no more than playground lowblows. I just stumbled onto this site and just read this book list. After reading that and now having read your comments, it seems to me that what is supposedly a death blow to believing in God, most likely the Christian God, is just dead on arrival. Most of the comments I’ve read and other articles on this site only seem like air tight “proofs” if used like weapons against someone who is fairly ignorant to scripture. These arguments require an incorrect redefining of what the Bible actually is in order to tear it apart. The theological messaging in Genesis and the prophet books was never meant to be science, if it was nobody at the time would have understood what was being said.
          Telling Jane that she should just sit down and read the Bible like a novel as though that’s how it’s supposed to be read is just silly. Do you sit down and read encyclopedias like the Harry Potter books? Yes there is an over arching narrative but it is a collection of histories, genealogies, prophecies and so on.
          As for Jesus referring to the four corners of the earth, you need to pay attention to two important, often overlooked aspects. First, who he was talking to and understand that this was the ancient, premodern world. They had a different cosmology than us post moderns, talking to them in a manner outside of their context would have been lost on them. Secondly, it doesn’t even really need the first explanation because referring to the four corners of the world doesn’t mean he literally thought the earth was a square anyway. To have intelligent discourse, you have to allow for people to use language to make a point, not be hyper literal about every word they use. The four corners of the earth can easily be referring to sections or areas or even the for cardinal points but really it just meant all encompassing. If we used this hyperliteral hermeneutic on each other we would all be liars. If I saw you getting in your car after saying, “I’m gonna run to the store” I wouldn’t accuse you of lying about how you intended to get there.
          Before I go, I’m assuming your final comment was referring to what Jesus said in Matthew 24. When people talk about reading something in context, it’s because it makes or breaks what is understood. Sit and read through the chapter and put yourself into the conversation. He is setting up a timeline and when he gets to the end of it he says his “this generation wont pass” phrase. He is referring to the generation at the end of the timeline he just setup and saying that all these things will take place quickly, not right now. That’s just how language works.

          1. I guess you are right that no one on the entire planet reads the Bible and takes it the way I was talking about… total strawman, lol. Seriously dude, I get that there are people who view the Bible as allegory, but face reality; you are in the vast minority here. The majority of practicing Christians do not take it in this fashion. They take Genesis to be science. This is why so many Christians refuse to accept the science of evolution and global climate change. If everyone viewed the Bible the way you do, there would be zero creationists and we would not be debating whether or not climate change was happening. Billions of people believe that the Bible tells a single narrative and that Jesus fulfilled prophecies from the Old Testament. But ask any Hebrew scholar and they will tell you that no such prophecies actually exist because the Old Testament is a collection of independent books written by different authors at different times for different reasons. If you want to get into that conversation, I will gladly do that because the fact is that none of the books of the Bible had a single author and they have all been altered over time… some dramatically so. But that is not the conversation I was having with Jane.

            Your attempt to justify why the end times did not occur when Jesus said it would is comical. The fact is that most of the early Christians (including Paul) really did believe that they were living in the end times. In fact, there are still Christians today who believe strongly that they are living in the end times right now.

            The reality is that you like to use the “Bible is allegory” mindset when it suits you, but fall back to “it says what it says” when you wish it too also. I will state again that the Bible is a series of books written by multiple anonymous authors that are not connected to each other. There is no narrative and those books are mostly all fiction.

          2. There was no historical Jesus of the gospels. The gospels is Jesus as a fictional myth character representing the sun in the zodiac and that is a proven fact. The story of the gospels follows the sun in the zodiac. Do some study in astrotheology. Mark the first unknown gospel author took ideas, rituals, traditions and scripture out of the OT and made up, fabricated the NT and Luke and Matthew took most of theirs from him copied pasted and sometimes edited it. Non in the gospels ever happened and most of the characters are not even historical. You christian have no idea. All christian arguments have been debunkked for years. Do some study.

    13. Oh I apologize if I didn’t make it clear… I have read the Bible front to back, a page at a time, in that order. Not all in one sitting by any means, but I rarely (if ever) do that with any book these days, sadly. Now that I’ve read the whole Bible the “as a book” way, I jump around a bit more and enjoy it everyday- sometimes a few verses, sometimes a few chapters, sometimes listening to it on CD. Anyhow, I just wanted to clear that up. Also I guess it doesn’t bother me to have what you call zombies in the Bible, but that’s me. You did bring up some interesting points… Points that are worth considering and that, although I have a little knowledge, I don’t have the skill to attempt to convince you otherwise on but maybe that’s okay. You’re smart enough, I can tell, to come up with a response anyway. 🙂 I do know that there are answers for many of these things from men and women much more educated than I am. But in my belief we don’t have to understand every nitty-gritty to have a relationship with God! He asks us to live in faith by His power, and has proved Himself enough in my life for me to still believe throughout the rough times.

    14. Care to comment on Antony Flew, and other than Charles Templeton can you enlighten me on any other high profile Christians who became atheistic. In a similar vein to guys like Josh McDowell, C.S.Lewis and day Lee Stobel who were complete atheists who became deists.

      Also can you elaborate on how or why every early scientist like Mendel,Pasteur, Galileo, Pascal, Newton (who incidentally dreamt up an entire realm of math) would ascribe to a belief in a deity and please don’t go into the adage that they were told by society or their king to believe it cause it seems somewhere down the road one of these impressive minds would have either rebelled or otherwise.

      1. Hey Ron, I’mm not bothered by your tone at all. First I want to say that I actually have talked about the Antony Flew situation before. It was a long time ago, shortly after he died. Here is a link to that post: http://www.dangeroustalk.net/?p=968

        With that said, I want to address the three people who were atheists and converted to Christianity. I actually have written about this too, but it was an article for a site that no longer exists and I have not yet moved it to another medium. So briefly let me point out that unlike religion, there is no doctrine of atheism. These three gentlemen were indeed atheists in that they lacked a belief in a deity or deities. However, they were not “high profile” atheists. They are high profile Christians. To date, there is only one lower medium profile atheist that I know of who converted to Catholicism. I have spoken to her personally and written about that too. But since she is so high profile, I’ll leave it to you to try to figure out who she even is… lol.

        My point is that there really aren’t any high profile atheists who have converted to Christianity that I am aware of. There are several Christians who have de-converted. In fact, I think probably about 70% of atheists were once religious. While I am pulling that number completely out of my ass, it is probably at least in the right ball park on a conservative level. I for one was a God-believing Jew before I became a Godless atheist. My friend Seth Andrews was a Christian radio host before he de-converted. He now hosts The Thinking Atheist podcast. Another friend of my, Jerry DeWitt was a Pentecostal preacher before preaching atheism .

        As for ancient scientists, you have to remember the times they lived in. In America today, we are dominated by religion, but it is nothing like it once was. We have laws today supporting the separation of church and state. That was not the case back in the day. The Church pretty much controlled the schools and the government. So scientists back in the day were indoctrinated much more than they are today and in some cases, even voicing religious doubts was considered a capital offense. Just some thoughts.

        1. The “church controlled the schools, government “and such….including hospitals, universities helping orphans, abandoned babies, vulnerable women etc. In spite of the admittedly bad things SOME in the church were accused (and convicted) of, by and large (oh maybe 70% or WAY higher pulling it out of my ass lol). The church, based on the teachings of Christ were the ONLY game in town (literally) with regards to schools and all aforementioned goodies in society. Can’t seem to recall things like the Atheistic Red Cross or Atheistic Harvard University or an Atheistic Florence Nightingale or such. ALL good things in western society are rooted in Christianity. Thoughts?

          1. I see what you did there. You asked me about the many scientists from the past who believed in God. I explained to you that for the most part, they didn’t have much of a choice since religion dominated the Dark Ages and pretty much controlled all the schools and the government. You aren’t denying that, but have pivoted the conversation to a different subject. That’s fine, we can talk about how Christianity created many hospitals and schools, but that isn’t what we were talking about before. So I want to make sure that you are conceding my point about how many early scientists believed in God because there really wasn’t a public alternative. If they publicly rejected a belief in God, they would have their research funding revoked and in all probability be executed.

            Now on to your new argument that Christianity was the only game in town when it came to schools and hospitals. First let me tell you about the atheist Red Cross. Do you know what it is called? It is called… The Red Cross. Yeah, The Red Cross is a secular organization that has zero to do with Christianity. Second, as I stated before, if someone publicly denied a belief in the right brand of Christianity, they would be executed!!! So yeah, there weren’t a whole lot of people willing to come out as atheists and yeah, they certainly wouldn’t have been allowed to create secular hospitals or secular schools. That all came around during the enlightenment when Christianity lost control over governments and could no longer execute non-believers. The idea that all good things in western society are rooted in Christianity is laughable. The enlightenment came despite the Church’s best efforts, not because of them. This is why, 94% of scientists in America do not believe in a personal God. In fact, in other countries, that number is even higher. In America, the number one group of people who oppose the scientific consensus on Climate Change is… Religious believers! Medical advancements… religious believers again. Secular schools (schools that don’t force a particular religious doctrine)… yup, you guessed it, religious believers. Which group most opposes the equality of women… religious believers yet again. Which group led the fight against slavery in America… oh sorry… that one was atheists. Religious believers quoted the Bible on why they thought they should be allowed to own black people as slaves.

            But I digress. The truth is that it doesn’t even matter. Even if Christians created world peace and shot rainbows out of their asses when they farted, it still wouldn’t change the fact that Christianity is simply not true. Christians could invent the greatest inventions the word has ever scene and it wouldn’t change the reality that God is imaginary. Still, it is interesting how Christianity is probably the cause of most of the worst behaviors and problems humanity has ever faced and continues to face. It is as I often say, Christianity is a threat to human happiness, human progress, and human survival on this planet.

    15. Sorry for my tone, truth is I’m a believer who has spent the better part of my life being a skeptic and reading Dawkins, listening to Harris, Hitchens etc,. I am genuinely curious to hear your answer to my questions and not out of a book written by an apologist. So would love a response and thank you in advance. Sorry once again.

      1. Here’s the thing Ron. I have been an vocal atheist long before Dawkins wrote “The God Delusion.” In fact, my criticism of that book at the time was that he didn’t add much to the conversation. Most of what he wrote was stuff that was already well known. So I don’t get my stuff from atheist apologists. The books I have listed in this post, I did so because I think they add something to the conversation that is new and of value.

        Do you know how many times a day a theist brings up the First Cause Argument to me? A lot. The Universe From Nothing addresses that question and explains how we know what we know about the Universe. It is worth reading.

        The Moral Landscape addresses C.S. Lewis’s Moral Law Giver. Sure, it isn’t a perfect book and there is still a lot that needs to be said on the subject, but this is a great book to start that conversation and it too is worth the read.

        The next two books on the list discuss the Bible itself. They two are worth the read. Although, you got me on Armstrong. She is an apologist… for Christianity! Still, her book is worth the read.

        Are the Bible? Yeah, it is boring populating with ridiculousness, but if you are a Christian, you should be reading this book already. I mean how could any Christian object to an atheist encouraging Christians to read their own damn holy book.

        The bonus book on my list is probably one of my favorites. I particularly like how the author has discovered a biblical test for the existence of God. It’s easy to read and well worth it.

        1. Can you in your own words explain your argument against the aforementioned theistic “proofs” , first cause argument and also the moral law giver argument?

          1. I have written articles on both of those before. They were on Examiner.com, but that site no longer exists and I have not moved those articles to a new medium yet.

            Even so, this is not the place for that. That is why I am recommending these books. They do that job already. Although personally, I think more can be said on the moral argument and I am working on writing a book to address that issue particularly.

            I always recommend that if you would like answers to these questions you should just Google them. The First Cause argument has been refuted quite extensively for quite a long time. I recommend Krauss’ book because he is a scientist on the cutting edge of cosmology. He has also given several talks about this book that can be found on YouTube if you would rather watch a 2 hour video.

    16. Personally I recommend most highly, the believing brain, by michael shermer. In it he compiles all of the natural explanations for religious beliefs I’ve ever come across. The only things that stand after this are mere deistic possibilities, and even then you understand why people believe in deities at all, and thus it undermines even the most basic god believing propositions.

      For any analytical friends, this book easily tops my list. For people that aren’t as interested, some other book may be better suited, but this one is always first for me to mention.

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