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Posted by on Dec 14, 2012 in Atheism, Politics | 25 comments

Atheists are better for politics than believers. Here’s why.

Polly Toynbee at the Guardian has this to say:

As my term as British Humanist Association president comes to an end, a few words of advice to my successor, Jim Al-Khalili

‘If you’re not religious, for God’s sake say so,” we implored, and many did. Over a quarter of the population registered as non-believers: more might have done were the census question unambiguous about whether it meant cultural background or personal belief. My term as president of the British Humanist Association ends this month, but gladly I hand over to Jim Al-Khalili, the distinguished professor of physics, writer, broadcaster and explainer of science. With atheism as the second largest block, he will be in a stronger position to see that unbelievers get a better hearing.

Rows over gay marriage and women bishops bewilder most people. With overwhelming popular support for both, how can abstruse theology and unpleasant prejudice cause such agitation at Westminster and in the rightwing press? Politics looks even more out of touch when obscure doctrine holds a disproportionate place in national life.

The religions still frighten politicians, because despite small numbers in the pews, synagogues and mosques, they are organised and vocal when most of the rest of society lacks community voice or influence. Labour was craven, endlessly wooing faith groups – David Blunkett wishing he could “bottle the magic” of faith schools.

With a third of state schools religious in this most secular country, Michael Gove not only swells their number but lets them discriminate as they please in admissions. As he is sending a bible to every English school, the BHA is fundraising to send out its own Young Atheist’s Handbook to school libraries. Government departments are outsourcing more services to faith groups in health, hospice, community and social care.

But of all the battles Jim Al-Khalili confronts, the most urgent is the right to die. Powerful religious forces block attempts to let the dying end their lives when they choose. Tony Nicklinson was the most public face of thousands in care homes and hospitals condemned to what he called “a living nightmare” by 26 bishops and other religious lords who say only God can dispose – the Bishop of Oxford decreed: “We are not autonomous beings.” The public supports the right to die, but many more will drag themselves off to a bleak Swiss clinic before the religions let us die in peace.

Sensing the ebbing tide of faith since the last census, the blowback against unbelievers has been remarkably violently expressed. Puzzlingly, we are routinely referred to as “aggressive atheists” as if non-belief itself were an affront. But we are with Voltaire, defending to the death people’s right to believe whatever they choose, but fighting to prevent them imposing their creeds on others.

The Abrahamic faiths, with their disgust for sex and women, still exert deep cultural influence. When David Cameron claimed “we are a Christian country”, there are certainly enough cultural relics in attitudes towards women and gays. Baroness Warsi’s letter expressing alarm that schools might teach gay marriage equalitycauses tremors of that sexual disgust branded into the souls of all three major monotheistic faiths. Are there many gay couples perverse enough to yearn to be married inside religions that abhor them? Humanists can offer them heartfelt celebrations.

In the Lords this week, by a whisker, section 5 of the Public Order Act was amended to remove the offence of using “insulting words or behaviour within hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harm, alarm or distress thereby”.

An extraordinary alliance of extreme religions wanting the right to preach fire and brimstone against gays joined with free thinkers wanting the right to be rude about religions. Liberty and the Christian Institute were on the same side against the government, which was defeated. Now the Commons will have to decide. Some religions argue they have a God-given right not to be caused offence, to give legal weight to fatwas against those who offend their prophets. But in the rough and tumble of free speech, no one can be protected against feeling offended. Jim Al-Khalili can expect all manner of attacks, but no protection for his sensibilities.

For instance, he might take offence at the charge that without God, unbelievers have no moral compass. Hitler and Stalin were atheists, that’s where it leads. We can ripost with religious atrocities, Godly genocides or the Inquisition, but that’s futile. Wise atheists make no moral claims, seeing good and bad randomly spread among humanity regardless of faith. Humans do have a hardwired moral sense, every child born with an instinct for justice that makes us by nature social animals, not needing revelations from ancient texts. The idea that morality can only be frightened into us artificially, by divine edict, is degrading.

The new president will confront another common insult: atheists are desiccated rationalists with nothing spiritual in their lives, poor shrivelled souls lacking transcendental joy and wonder. But in awe of the natural world of physics, he’ll have no trouble with that. Earthbound, there is enough wonder in the magical realms of human imagination, thought, dream, memory and fantasy where most people reside for much of their waking lives. There is no emotional or spiritual deficiency in rejecting creeds that stunt and infantalise the imagination.

Liberated by knowing the here and now is all there is, humanists are optimists, certain that our destiny rests in our own hands. That’s why most humanists are natural social democrats, not conservatives.

  • christthetao

    Wise atheists make no moral claims?  Looks to me like you just did. 

    The fact is, secularists provided practically no push-back against jihadist, murderous, culture-destroying Marxism in the past century.  Thirty percent of Italians and French were happy to vote for the communists.  Most atheists in modern times have been communists.  Great for politics, your chums have been — vote for the Mordor Worker’s Party and Chairman Voldomort. 

    Christianity doesn’t have “disgust for women and sex.”  The Gospel did more to liberate women than anything else in history: http://christthetao.blogspot.com/2011/06/how-jesus-has-women-i-intro-one-of.html

    As for sex, God created it, and commanded the first man and women to get it on (in a more serious and radical way than anyone’s one-night stand — way beyond mere animality.)  God created the body, he “likes matter” as CS Lewis put it.  The ancient Greeks were getting pretty sick of it, though. 

    Good and bad “randomly spread” among humanity?  So, you’re equally likely to be kind and loving if you’ve been raised by Aztec priests, Nazi stormtroopers, and serious Quakers?  I see neither reason nor evidence for that.  There IS an element of randomness, but there are also patterns and causality.  It’s not simple white hats vs. black hats, but there are distinctions.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NZMJ7JRYKH7WR6YTXJGG3PU65E John Grove

    Ah Christians…………..whatever it takes huh? 

  • Andy_Schueler

    The fact is, secularists provided practically no push-back against
    jihadist, murderous, culture-destroying Marxism in the past century. 
    Thirty percent of Italians and French were happy to vote for the
    communists.  Most atheists in modern times have been communists.  Great
    for politics, your chums have been — vote for the Mordor Worker’s
    Party and Chairman Voldomort. 

    Oh, I can cherry-pick too – 44% of germans in 1933 (a time in which germany was pretty much 100% christian – lutheran and catholic mostly) voted for the Nazis (which were again almost 100% christians – with some pagan exceptions and virtually no Humanists / Atheists whatsoever (Atheist and humanist organizations were almost immediatly outlawed when the Nazis rose to power and an Atheist would not even have been allowed to volunteer for the SS because Himmler had a zero tolerance approach when it came to non-belief)). Great for politics your christian chums have been!
    And was there any 20th century european fascist regime that the catholic church was not happy to cooperate with ? Yeah, I can´t think of one either.
    Totalitarianism is a very complex phenomenon and cherry-picking the totalitarian states that were based on communist ideas does not indicate any understanding of it.

    Christianity doesn’t have “disgust for women and sex.”  The Gospel did more to liberate women than anything else in history

    Nope, birth control did “more than anything else” to liberate women.

    As for sex, God created it, and commanded the first man and women to get it on (in a more serious and radical way than anyone’s one-night stand — way beyond mere animality.)

    You realize that there was no “first man and woman” right ? The effective human population size was never smaller than ~1200 individuals.

    Good and bad “randomly spread” among humanity?  So, you’re equally
    likely to be kind and loving if you’ve been raised by Aztec priests,
    Nazi stormtroopers, and serious Quakers? I see neither reason nor evidence for that. So, you’re equally likely to be kind and loving if you’ve been raised by Aztec priests, Nazi stormtroopers, and serious Quakers?

    If you do in-group comparisons (with one in-group for example being germans living in the third reich) , you´ll find that religious faith is indeed no predictor for “good or bad” (well, some exceptions of course – the Jehovah´s witnesses for example categorically refused cooperation with the Nazi´s – but so did humanists, communists and socialists).

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NZMJ7JRYKH7WR6YTXJGG3PU65E John Grove

    To say Christianity advances women’s rights is a misnomer of great proportions not to mention just outright BS.

  • http://www.skepticblogs.com/tippling/ Jonathan MS Pearce

    Would you perchance be conflating Christianity with someone who might happen to be Christian? Because then I could claim Christianity has also been responsible for all the terrible things from 400 to 1800! 

    That is a terrible argument.

  • christthetao

    John: Rank assertion.  I give the facts. 

  • christthetao

    Why do you begin your first sentence with the conditional “would,” then evolve it into “is” in your last sentence?  Wouldn’t it be better to listen for the answer to a question, before drawing conclusions on that answer? 

    The answer to that first question is “no,” by the way.   

  • christthetao

    Andy: The atheists in Germany were mostly communists, true.  But that didn’t stop Adolf Hitler and his chums from drawing on several atheist thinkers.  The Nazis in general were neither Christian nor atheist, and opposed both. 

    I was speaking of what Genesis records, and its ethical implications, obviously not commenting on early human history.   The creation story would make JP’s claim very odd indeed, and it is in fact false. 

    Birth control did not liberate women.  It made pimps easier to prostitute many of them, for instance.  Having a baby is not a form of slavery.  It may have saved children from predators like Rousseau, but its impact on society in general has been ambivalent, at best.  

  • Andy_Schueler

     

    The Nazis in general were neither Christian nor atheist, and opposed both. 

    That is simply wrong. Virtually all germans at this time were christians, and the Nazis were almost exclusively catholic, lutheran (and a handful of neo-pagans).
    The Nazis also did not oppose christianity, because there simply was no reason to do so – the churches were happy to cooperate with the Nazis and christian teachings were instrumental in keeping the virulent anti-semitism alive and to dehumanize Jews (try reading Hitler´s “Mein Kampf” and Martin Luther´s “On the Jews and their lies” and compare the ideas in both books. 20th century german anti-semitism did not emerge in a vacuum…).
    There are a few exceptions of course, the Jehovah´s witnesses for example were persecuted because they categorically refused to cooperate with the Nazis.
    There is also some evidence that the Nazis made plans for the time after Hitler´s death, which included the deification of Adolf Hitler (the plan was to immediatly hide his corpse after his death and to claim that the Führer´s spirit returned to the “Gralsburg”) and to replace christian churches with “Adolf Hitler Weihestätten”. But until they were defeated, they did nothing to replace christianity with other religious ideas, or to persecute christians in general (but they did persecute Atheists, and not only those that identified as Socialists or Communists).

    Birth control did not liberate women.

    In your blog-post, you used the following measures for the status of women based on a UN study: employment, education, number of children, health and social equality.
    For women, all of these factors are strongly related to family planning – finding stable employment is impossible without family planning, higher education is impossible without family planning, controlling the number of children you have is impossible without family planning, the overall (i.e. statistical) health of women is improved by family planning, and social equality between men and women is and was drastically improved by family planning.
    If we use those five measures, the gospel was most certainly not what “did the most” to liberate women – it was affordable, effective and socially accepted methods for birth control (and secularism as a close second).

    Having a baby is not a form of slavery.

    Of course not, that does not contradict any of the points I mentioned above relating to employment, education, number of children, health and social equality however,

    but its impact on society in general has been ambivalent, at best.  

    This is one of the things I don´t get about politically conservative Christians – birth control and comprehensive sex education is by far the most effective way to prevent teenage pregnancies and abortions, so why do you oppose the only effective way that humans ever came up with to prevent abortions ?

  • christthetao

    Andy: If you stopped to think, you would realize (hopefully) we are using the word “Christian” in different senses.  You appear to mean “person who has been baptized at some point in his life,” like Adolf Hitler.  I mean people who actually believe in Christianity, and maybe even try to live by it. 

    That Luther-Hitler analogy has become a bit of a bore.  Don’t parrot Hector Avalos.  Here’s my rebuttal from a couple years ago: http://christthetao.blogspot.com/2010/10/new-atheism-and-ab-uses-of-history.html

    And actually, yes the Nazis did take practical anti-Christian steps, as Michael Burleigh, a leading historian of the Nazis and totalitarian movements,showed in Sacred Causes: Religion and Politics from the European Dictators to Al Queda. 

    As I show in Part III of the “How Jesus Liberated Women” series, the liberation predated birth control pills, etc.  Your response is glib, and fails to take much of the evidence into account. 

    What makes you think I oppose sex education and birth control (those forms that don’t involve killing the kid)?  I didn’t say anything that implies that, and I don’t, if its done wisely.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NZMJ7JRYKH7WR6YTXJGG3PU65E John Grove

    [[I mean people who actually believe in Christianity, and maybe even try to live by it. ]]

    Nothing like the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy repeated like a mantra.

    Hitler wrote:

    My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what
    they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize
    more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the
    duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also
    a duty to my own people.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NZMJ7JRYKH7WR6YTXJGG3PU65E John Grove

    Sounds to me, Hitler believed he was a Christian and lived by what he believed and how he understood the Bible to the best of his knowledge.

  • Andy_Schueler

    Andy: If you stopped to think, you would realize (hopefully) we are using the word “Christian” in different senses.  You appear to mean “person who has been baptized at some point in his life,” like Adolf Hitler. 

    I wouldn´t necessarily count Hitler as a christian, scholars never reached a consensus about what his religious beliefs most likely were, but two things are certain – he believed in a personal God, but had a very low opinion of many of the (alleged) teachings of Jesus (because mercy and helping the weak was intrinsically evil in his opinion, for example).

    I mean people who actually believe in Christianity, and maybe even try to live by it. 

    That definition is so vague that it´s only purpose could be the enabling of cherry picking and no true scotsmen fallacies. 
    IMO – helping the poor and the sick is one of the few things that the NT is (almost) crystal clear about. So based on that, I could classify all americans that vote for the Republicans (not that the Democrats would be much better) as not being “true christians” because they don´t try to live by what the gospel teaches. You would most likely disagree with that assessment, and we have no way to settle who is right because “people who actually believe in Christianity, and maybe even try to live by it” is so vague that it could mean almost anything.

    That Luther-Hitler analogy has become a bit of a bore.  Don’t parrot Hector Avalos.  Here’s my rebuttal from a couple years ago: http://christthetao.blogspot.c…

    You think Richard Weikart is a serious scholar ? Seriously ? Who´s next ? Scott Lively ? You are aware of the fact that the Nazis were creationists and that Darwin´s books were banned in the third Reich ? 
    Your blog post is a pathetic attempt to whitewash the role of christian thought in keeping european anti-semitism alive, you write:
    “The truth is, while both Western and Muslim worlds owe deep debts to the Jewish people for our crimes, until Hitler, genocide was never official policy in either civilization. Luther’s rant aside, millions of Jews lived in Europe because the Church usually protected and often defended them – a fact admitted by sober Jewish historians.”
    - way to ignore the fact that Jews were a despised and oppressed minority for centuries. The Nazis didn´t invent the idea of using the Jews as a scapegoat, this idea is way older than that:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

    And actually, yes the Nazis did take practical anti-Christian steps, as Michael Burleigh, a leading historian of the Nazis and totalitarian movements,showed 

    There were some, yes – but the Nazis did in no way, shape or form oppress or persecute christians in general (exceptions include most prominently the Jehovah´s witnesses) – this would be absurd to begin with because most of them were christians. 

    As I show in Part III of the “How Jesus Liberated Women” series, the liberation predated birth control pills, etc.

     If you try to measure “liberation” by the 5 issues we mentioned earlier, then almost nothing happened in terms of “liberating” women until the 20th century. 

    What makes you think I oppose sex education and birth control (those forms that don’t involve killing the kid)?

    No form of birth control kills a kid, unless you think that a lump of 1-16 cells is a kid.

  • christthetao

    John Grove: The words “No True Scotsman” have become an increasingly inane automatic response by skeptics.  Distinguishing between people who are “Christian” in the sense they had water poured over their bald heads as babies, and who actually believe in Christianity and try to live by it, is hardly a logical fallacy of some sort.  It is simply rational.

    No one denies that Hitler tried to appeal to Christians in Germany, or that he was a liar.  The communists already had much or most of the Jewish and atheist / secularist portion of the population sewed up: Hitler was a smart enough politician to know he couldn’t afford to alienate whatever was left.  This is Propaganda 101. 

    Sure, Hitler found one passage in the NT he liked.  Prod Richard Dawkins, and he’ll admit to liking a few hundred passages. 

  • christthetao

    You’d probably like to believe that, too. 

  • christthetao

    Andy: Actually, Republicans tend to give far more to charity than Democrats — read Arthur Brooks, Who Really Cares?  But you’re right, it would be difficult to definately decide who was a Christian that way — and that wasn’t what I was doing.  We can exclude people that way.  I have never read anything that inclined me to think Hitler either believed in Christianity, or tried to live it. 

    Of course Weikart is a serious scholar.  That’s why he teaches history at California State University.  That’s why top scholars of Germany reviewed his book positively. 

    “Your blog post is a pathetic attempt to whitewash the role of christian thought in keeping european anti-semitism alive.”

    Well, OK, and your mother wears army boots. 

    DM: “The truth is, while both Western and Muslim worlds owe deep debts to the Jewish people for our crimes, until Hitler, genocide was never official policy in either civilization. Luther’s rant aside, millions of Jews lived in Europe because the Church usually protected and often defended them – a fact admitted by sober Jewish historians.”

    Andy:  Way to ignore the fact that Jews were a despised and oppressed minority for centuries. The Nazis didn´t invent the idea of using the Jews as a scapegoat, this idea is way older than that.

    No kidding.  As I admitted 12 years ago, in Jesus and the Religions of Man.  Scapegoating, of course, is as old as Adam and Eve, and scapegoating of Jews nearly as old. 

    You’re trying to force an overly simplistic view on me, which I have never promoted.

    “If you try to measure “liberation” by the 5 issues we mentioned earlier, then almost nothing happened in terms of “liberating” women until the 20th century.”

    Untrue.  Much of it happened already in the early Church, and even some in the Middle Ages: much more was a consequence of Christian, especially Protestant missions, as I show.

  • Andy_Schueler

    Andy: Actually, Republicans tend to give far more to charity than Democrats — read Arthur Brooks, Who Really Cares?

    Haven´t read it, but unsurprisingly, the distinction vanishes when donations to religious organizations (of which many can hardly be counted as “charitiy”) are excluded:
    “According to Google’s figures, if donations to all religious organizations are excluded, liberals give slightly more to charity than conservatives do.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html?hp&_r=0

    Of course Weikart is a serious scholar.  That’s why he teaches history at California State University.  That’s why top scholars of Germany reviewed his book positively. 

    The idea that Darwin in any way, shape or form influenced Nazism is so ridiculously absurd that Weikart can be considered anything but a serious scholar. If there are “german top scholars” that reviewed his book positively, I´d really like to see that…

    No kidding.  As I admitted 12 years ago, in Jesus and the Religions of Man.  Scapegoating, of course, is as old as Adam and Eve, and scapegoating of Jews nearly as old. 

    Then I´m not sure what we are actually disagreeing about. If you accept that christian thought was instrumental (but obviously not the only factor) in preserving and promoting european anti-semitism, than we are in agreement. 

    Untrue.  Much of it happened already in the early Church, and even some in the Middle Ages: much more was a consequence of Christian, especially Protestant missions, as I show.

    Right to vote ? No.
    Being allowed to graduate at a University ? No.
    Being able to control when and how many children they will have ? No. 
    Right to work without permission of father / husband ? No. 
    Legal equality with men ? No. 
    And the examples you give from medieval times and before are highly questionable at best… Some examples:
    - “ If true, however, one can say that Jesus directly improved the lives of hundreds of women in dramatic ways.” – yes, if true, without any evidence of it being true, it doesn´t count.
    - “Christianity helped women in the Greco-Roman world in five principle ways: (a) By discouraging abortion (early methods for which were dangerous, and killed a lot of women); (b) by discouraging female infanticide (extremely common in the Roman world;” – “discouraging” abortions has never prevented abortions.
    - “by rejecting the “double standard” that men could fool around, but women must be punished for doing so” – in theory maybe, not in practice.
    - “ by encouraging Christians to care for one another during common epidemics” – where is the evidence that they cared more for each other after christianity became a force in the roman empire ? 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NZMJ7JRYKH7WR6YTXJGG3PU65E John Grove

    [[ The words "No True Scotsman" have become an increasingly inane automatic response by skeptics]]

    Well as long as you commit this fallacy we will call you out on it.

    [[Distinguishing between people who are "Christian" in the sense they had
    water poured over their bald heads as babies, and who actually believe
    in Christianity and try to live by it, is hardly a logical fallacy of
    some sort. ]]

    But, how do you distinguish saved folks apart from non saved ones? Do you possess omniscience now? If what people claim and say is not enough but we have to examine their acts, isn’t that legalism? When someone claims to receive Christ as their savior, do you tell them they are not saved until they can prove it? Your problem is simple, you just cannot imagine that those who name the name of Christ can commit crimes so you dismiss them as not ‘true’ Christians. Hence you commit the fallacy.

  • Andy_Schueler

    Of course Weikart is a serious scholar.  That’s why he teaches history at California State University.  That’s why top scholars of Germany reviewed his book positively. 

    I´m getting really curious about this – by “top scholars of Germany” I presume you mean top scholars of german history, since the book was not released in german and I couldn´t find a single review by a german historian. And the reviews I found by american scholars of german history seem to almost universally negative to highly negative. Which is not surprising since you don´t even need to be a historian to understand that the idea that Darwinism lead to Nazism is ridiculously absurd. To name just two reasons (I could add many more) for why this is absurd:
    - The list of banned books in the third Reich included
    “6. Schriften weltanschaulichen und lebenskundlichen Charakters, deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufklärung eines primitiven Darwinismus und Monismus ist (Haeckel)”
    (Writings of an ideological or sociological nature, which deal with the false scientifc ideas of primitive darwinism and monism (Haeckel) – my translation)
    http://speccoll.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm
    - Some leading Nazi thinkers explicitly condemned Darwinism as a silly myth and none endorsed it, example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Twentieth_Century

    So, I´d really like to see some examples of “top scholars” reviewing this nonsense positively…

  • christthetao

    Andy: You should read it.  Brooks shows that in “every measurable way,” religious people are far more charitable than non-religious, not just in money to church.  (Though obvoiusly that counts, too)  Also in time, blood, even giving money back when given too much at the store. 

    The real key is religious commitment, not politics.  Conservatives do far better because they tend to be far more religious, but non-religious conservatives tend to do poorly. 
    “The idea that Darwin in any way, shape or form influenced Nazism is almost as ridiculously absurd as Lively´s ideas that most of the Nazi leaders were gays. Based on that, Weikart can be considered anything but a serious scholar.”The argument from personal incredulity!  And this should matter because? 

    “If there are “german top scholars” that reviewed his book positively, I´d really like to see that…”

    I was typing fast.  The book has great blurbs from Richard Evans, Professor of Modern History, Cambridge; Ian Downbiggin, Professor of History, University of Prince Edward Island (who has written on euthanasia); Kevin Repp, Associate Professor of History, Yale, and Alfred Kelly, Edgar B Graves Professor of History, Hamilton College. 

    So there.  You’ve seen it. 
    “Then I´m not sure what we are actually disagreeing about. If you accept that christian thought was instrumental (but obviously not the only factor) in preserving and promoting european anti-semitism, than we are in agreement.”

    When did I say that?   
    “And the examples you give from medieval times and before are highly questionable at best . . . ”

    That’s a cop-out.  They are true.  Of course anyone person can question anything, without knowing the facts. 
    “Where is the evidence that they cared more for each other after christianity became a force in the roman empire?”

    In Stark, The Rise of Christianity.  Durant seems to concede something like that, too.   

    “If you want to argue that it was more important in liberating women (according to the five measures listed in the UN study you quote) than birth control, secularism and women´s suffrage, than I would very strongly disagree.”

    I already did argue that.  And you haven’t done anything to dislodge my arguments, really. 

    But I may focus on your attempted rebuttal and dedicate a long post to it, when time allows: yours is, at least, a more interesting response than most I got to those posts from skeptics. 

  • christthetao

    Well thank you for proving that the Bible had nothing to do with the Inquisition, since it was banned during the Middle Ages. 

    But both your arguments are historical non sequiturs. You need to read Weikart’s book to pretend to refute it. 

  • Andy_Schueler

    The argument from personal incredulity!  And this should matter because? 

    Because, as I already mentioned:
    ” And the reviews I found by american scholars of german history seem to almost universally negative to highly negative. Which is not surprising since you don´t even need to be a historian to understand that the idea that Darwinism led to Nazism is ridiculously absurd. To name just two reasons (I could add many more) for why this is absurd:- The list of banned books in the third Reich included”6. Schriften weltanschaulichen und lebenskundlichen Charakters, deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufklärung eines primitiven Darwinismus und Monismus ist (Haeckel)”(Writings of an ideological or sociological nature, which deal with the false scientifc ideas of primitive darwinism and monism (Haeckel) – my translation)http://speccoll.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm- Some leading Nazi thinkers explicitly condemned Darwinism as a silly myth and none endorsed it, example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Twentieth_Century  ”

    Arguing that Darwinism led to Nazism is slightly less ridiculous than arguing that most of the Nazi leaders were gays as Scott Lively does, but only slightly.

    I was typing fast.  The book has great blurbs from 

    So blurbs, not reviews – in this case, the scholars mentioned either never read the book and wrote those blurbs as a favor or they outed themselves as idiots. I still haven´t found a single positive review by a scholar of german history btw.

    When did I say that?   

    If you didn´t say that, I can´t parse your response. 

    That’s a cop-out.  They are true. 

    Oh really ? Then where is the evidence that any of the stories surrounding Jesus actually happened ? Where is the evidence that “discouraging” abortions ever had any measurable effect on the number of abortions that actually happened. 

    Andy: ”If you want to argue that it was more important in liberating women (according to the five measures listed in the UN study you quote) than birth control, secularism and women´s suffrage, than I would very strongly disagree.”
    christthetao: I already did argue that.  And you haven’t done anything to dislodge my arguments, really. 

    I repeat:
    Right to vote ? No.Being allowed to graduate at a University ? No.Being able to control when and how many children they will have ? No. Right to work without permission of father / husband ? No. Legal equality with men ? No. 
    And for the factors “employment, education, number of children, health and social equality. ” that you use, I already argued how birth control (and secularism) was instrumental in improving them for women (have you never wondered why the top 12 countries you show also happen to be the most secular countries ? And most are even Atheist strongholds like Denmark and eastern Germany ?).  

    But I may focus on your attempted rebuttal

    The most obvious criticism I would add is this: you compare a “christian background” with a “muslim background” and from the fact that the top ranking countries had a christian background, you infer a causal relationship, 
    The top countries in your ranking are completely secular ones however. One obvious alternative hypothesis would be that the enlightenment reduced christian influence on politics and social norms and thus made secularism and (later) the social acceptance of birth control possible while something similar to the enlightenment has not yet happened in the muslim world. And some simple experiments to test which hypothesis is more likely would be very easy:
    1. comparing the distribution of the values for  ”employment, education, number of children, health and social equality” between secular and non-secular states.
    2. Measuring independent correlations of ”employment, education, number of children, health and social equality” with the religiosity of a country.
    3. Same as 2, but use the prevalence of birth control ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_the_Children_State_of_the_World%27s_Mothers_report )
    Do you know how to do a partial correlation analysis ? 

  • Andy_Schueler

    Well thank you for proving that the Bible had nothing to do with the Inquisition, since it was banned during the Middle Ages. 

    1. If the Nazi leaders would have outlawed the possession of Darwin´s or Haeckel´s books for the german population, but would have preached their content to the germans you might have a point there. 
    2. There is a long list of leading Nazi thinkers and people that strongly influenced Nazism (including Chamberlain) that strongly and explicitly condemned Darwinism as a silly myth and not a single one that endorsed it. 
    3. The Nazis were creationists – it hardly gets any more anti-darwinian than that. 
    The association between Darwinism and Nazism is beyond ridiculous,  

    But both your arguments are historical non sequiturs. You need to read Weikart’s book to pretend to refute it. 

    Really not interested, I already wasted almost one hour watching a presentation by this guy:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gukfKLP4ZQAll he does is mentioning some stuff about Darwin or Evolution first, then he quotes random german / austrian doctors and eugenicists without any evidence that the two things are in any way, shape or form connected to each other and hopes that the audience is stupid enough to think “Ah, these despicable eugenicists were obviously influenced by reading Darwin!”. This is even more pathetic than I thought, and almost comically easy to refute. Two key tenets of the Nazi Rassenlehre was the idea that the Aryans were seperately created from the other “sub-human races” and that the Aryan race was created perfect – the bloodline therefore must be kept pure by preventing “mixing with the sub-human races” and weeding out “degenerates” (see the writings of Arthur Gobineau and H.S. Chamberlain, which were extremely influential for the thinking of the leading german eugenicists). 

  • christthetao

    I find, Andy, the following comment almost completely negates any inclination I may have had to take anything you say subsequently seriously, if you mean it seriously:

    “So blurbs, not reviews – in this case, the scholars mentioned either never read the book and wrote those blurbs as a favor or they outed themselves as idiots. I still haven´t found a single positive review by a scholar of german history btw.”

    (a) A “blurb” is a review, a short one.

    (b) You know how they are all so dishonest that they claim to evaluate a book they never read?  On what grounds do you accuse them of that dishonesty? 

    (c) And not having read the book yourself, you call eminent Cambridge and Yale historians “idiots”  because they like a book you think (because you googled it) one ought not to like? 

    I think I’ll just return the favor, for better reason.  But being honest, I don’t think “idiot” is the right word — “fool” does seem to hit the nail squarely on its head.  Anyone who says something that foolish, based on so much of absolutely nothing but hubris, cannot be taken seriously. 

    I’m busy tonight anyway, and am glad not to feel any compulsion to read further.  You have emphatically ruled yourself out as a serious person, with that run of foolishness, at least for the by.

  • Andy_Schueler

    (a) A “blurb” is a review, a short one.

    “Blurb”, definition: “A short description of a book, movie, or other product written for promotional purposes and appearing on the cover of a book or in an…”
    “Review”, definition: “A critical article or report, as in a periodical, on a book, play, recital, or the like; critique; evaluation.

    (b) You know how they are all so dishonest that they claim to evaluate a book they never read?  On what grounds do you accuse them of that dishonesty? 

    A combination of several reasons:
    1.  I´ve repeatedly demonstrad why the idea that Darwinism led to Nazism is ridculously absurd, so far giving three arguments which all by themselves would already be sufficient (remember, I could add many more arguments to this list). You (having read the book) have nothing whatsoever to refute my arguments. 
    2. I can´t find a single positive review (but many highly negative ones) by scholars of german history.
    3. I´ve seen a presentation by Weikart about this exact topic, in which he had an entire hour to present even just a shred of evidence for his argument, but didn´t do so – and since you (having read his book) can´t do so either, I must conclude that he indeed doesn´t have any.

    (c) And not having read the book yourself, you call eminent Cambridge and Yale historians “idiots”  because they like a book you think (because you googled it) one ought not to like?

    I know the thesis of the book. I know that this thesis is moronic. I verified that the author is indeed completely dishonest and has not a shred of evidence for his thesis by watching one of his presentation and reading reviews of the book by scholars of german history. If you think I still need to buy and read this dreck to condemn it as another dishonest ID-creationist propaganda piece, you are essentially arguing that no one can criticize a book without having read it. This is nonsensical, if the thesis of the book is known (and patently absurd) and it seems clear that neither the author himself, nor people who have read his book, can give any arguments for why his thesis should be taken seriously despite the overwhelming evidence of it being completely absurd – then there is no reason whatsoever to give the author the benefit of the doubt. I criticize Weikart for the same reasons I would criticize David Barton or Scott Lively (I haven´t read their books either and I´m not going to). 
     
    Regarding “eminent historians”. “Idiots” doesn´t really fit, “gullible fools” would be more appropriate. 
    Take for example Richard Evans blurb:
    “Richard Weikart’s outstanding book shows in sober and convincing detail how Darwinist thinkers in Germany had developed an amoral attitude to human society by the time of the First World War, in which the supposed good of the race was applied as the sole criterion of public policy and ‘racial hygiene’. Without over-simplifying the lines that connected this body of thought to Hitler, he demonstrates with chilling clarity how policies such as infanticide, assisted suicide, marriage prohibitions and much else were being proposed for those considered racially or eugenically inferior by a variety of Darwinist writers and scientists, providing Hitler and the Nazis with a scientific justification for the policies they pursued once they came to power.”–Richard Evans”
    - This is so breathtakingly idiotic that he either was gullible enough to blindly believe Weikart without fact-checking any of his claims or he browsed the book and wrote a positive blurb without giving it any thought.

    I think I’ll just return the favor, for better reason.  But being honest, I don’t think “idiot” is the right word — “fool” does seem to hit the nail squarely on its head.  Anyone who says something that foolish, based on so much of absolutely nothing but hubris, cannot be taken seriously. 
    You have emphatically ruled yourself out as a serious person, with that run of foolishness, 

    Let me point out again that you had the time to write this angry rant, but you (having read the book) did not have the time to provide even a shred of evidence for why any of my arguments is not sound. You seem to be experiencing some cognitive dissonance because you put some effort into defending a dishonest propagandist like Weikart and now you realize that you cannot defend Weikart´s thesis at all – everyone with a little understanding of the history of evolutionary thought and the german eugenics program can show you that it´s complete and utter nonsense and you have nothing to respond with. You shouldn´t be angry at me, you should be angry at Weikart – he fooled you.