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Posted by on Apr 17, 2014 in Secularism | 23 comments

Islam’s Universal Incompatibility with Individual Rights, In Numbers

The word “Islam” means “submission” in Arabic. That, in itself, tells you everything you need to know about this religion. Total surrender of control over every aspect of your life is what Islam is about. Rather unsubtle. Few religions/philosophies/schools of thought are so explicit about what they actually want. It is surprising, hence, that even secularists make such statements, based on political correctness rather than reality:

[O]utside of certain (increasingly easy to identify) regions, for example Saudi Arabia, to say that both person X and person Y are Muslims, or Christians, is to say very little.

The data, however, tell us a starkly different story.

A Pew Research Study across 40 nations reveals an unmistakable pattern. Attitudes toward personal freedoms are harshest among Islamic nations. Whether your actions are moral or not is not judged by whether they harm you or others (as much as secular sounding justifications may be used to paper over the ideological motivations), but whether they jibe with what God has deemed good for you-in other words, the rules of Islamic Sharia. Notably, “moderate” Islamic countries such as Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia, might be slightly more tolerant than others, but not much.

To get an idea of what is meant by this, let’s look at public views on 3 subjects across different nations.

Is drinking alcohol “immoral”? Depends on who you ask.

alcohol

Out of the ten countries where highest percentages of the population consider drinking alcohol “immoral”, seven are Islamic.

How about premarital sex?

prem
Nine of the top ten Muslim majority, in this case.

As for the icky gays:

icky

Once again, 7 out of 10 nations making the most intolerant list are Islamic.

What is equally interesting, is that on the three named subjects, there is not one Islamic country among the list of top ten tolerant ones. None whatsoever.

Good thing researchers did not ask any questions about freedom of expression, specifically as it pertains to views considered blasphemous by different religions. The results would likely be even more embarrassing for the politically correct crowd.

  • ThePrussian

    Muslim immigrants in Europe typically have the highest rape rates of any group and a higher criminality compared to other immigrant communities (compare with Hindus and Sikhs in the UK).

    Great piece

    • delio mugnolo

      source?

  • SmilodonsRetreat

    I’d like to see what the most tolerant countries are.

    Do those top ten countries have ‘state religions” or is based on the majority of people?

    • NoCrossNoCrescent

      Just follow the link to original study.

      • delio mugnolo

        I have followed the link. Results:

        1) among the top 3 most anti-contractepives countries, 2 out of 3 have a christian majority.
        2) among the top 3 most anti-divorce countries, 3 out of 3 have a christian majority.
        3) among the top 3 most anti-divorce countries, 2 out of 3 have a christian majority.
        4) among the top 3 most anti-homosexuality countries, 1 out of 3 have a christian majority.
        5) among the top 3 most anti-affairs countries, 0 out of 3 have a christian majority.
        6) among the top 3 most anti-gambling countries, 1 out of 3 have a christian majority.

        etc.

        and so on. to me, the only discernible pattern is that poorer countries score low in almost all polls.

        • NoCrossNoCrescent

          1. I go with top 10, because only top 3 is more likely to be a sampling bias. After all not every single nation was polled.
          2. You can actually be more specific than “christian”-on divorce and birth control, some of the top countries are catholic. Are you telling me you are surprised?
          3. ” Discernible pattern”? Maybe you can take another look at the chart in the post. Only one G20 country makes all 3 lists-Malaysia, and it is Muslim majority.
          Better luck next time.

  • poboxy

    Yes it is well known that in these countries there is no subtleties like in rich countries, everything can be pinpointed to Islam. It is well known that the economy, the non democratic governments, the poverty of the masses, the crappy education, history etc.. have nothing to with anything. It is only Islam.

    • NoCrossNoCrescent

      Lol. You may want to polish your apologetics a bit, right now it is just too easy to see through. Some of the richest countries in the world as judged by per capita income are the Persian Gulf oil rich sheikhdom; they are also among those with fewest freedoms (ever heard of Saudi morality police?). Regarding nondemocratic governance- do people on your planet ever mention the fact that the parliamentary democracy in Iraq is legalizing child marriage, forbidden under tyrannical dictator Saddam? And that in theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia, Islam is the CAUSE of nondemocratic governance? As for poverty, lack of education etc I suggest you take a look at the original Pew numbers: plenty of poor countries surveyed, and it turns out poverty and intolerance don’t go hand in hand…until you throw religion in the mix. But hey, if the tobacco industry got away with saying lung cancer is multifactorial and the role of smoking was “overstated” and “unproven” for decades, why can’t the same be done to whitewash the backwardness of a religion?

      • delio mugnolo

        > Regarding nondemocratic governance- do people on your planet ever mention the fact that the parliamentary democracy in Iraq is legalizing child marriage, forbidden under tyrannical dictator Saddam?

        Good point, and I completely agree. But it contradicts your own opinion that it is not political Islam that makes a country intolerant, but Islam *tout court*.

        • NoCrossNoCrescent

          I don’t necessarily disagree but the line between the two is sometimes extremely difficult to draw. For example the Muslim minority in the UK shows more and more of the same traits every day without being in power.

          • delio mugnolo

            Right. And it was the very same muslim minority that, back in the 1970s, was left-wings-oriented instead – take a look at any of Kureishi’s early novels. This has a lot to do with usual immigration behavioral schemes and less with Islam, in my opinion. Same holds in Germany or France with people of turkish or north-african origin. Ever bothered to look for a correlation between scores in intolerance tests and family income?

          • NoCrossNoCrescent

            So Muslims behave precisely as their faith tells them, and that’s “immigrant behavior”-interesting, except that you don’t find it in Caribbean or South American immigrants. As for income and religious behavior-ever bothered to search my blog? Economic insecurity leads to increased religious behavior, that has been known for years now. More religion, more intolerance.

          • delio mugnolo

            > Economic insecurity leads to increased religious behavior, that has been known for years now. More religion, more intolerance.

            Of course, this is one of the reasons why I am an atheist. But I do not believe at all that only for muslims there is a correlation between income and conservatism. I don’t know the UK well enough, but in Germany you can observe the very same correlation among Italian immigrants, Russian immigrants, central African immigrants, and so on.

          • NoCrossNoCrescent

            Except that the other immigrants do not set up Sharia courts or try to enforce rules on homosexuality or alcohol on the streets, conservative as they may be.

          • delio mugnolo

            No, they don’t. But so don’t muslims in Germany or Italy or, as far as I know, in France. May I suggest that something went terribly wrong in the UK some 30 or 40 years ago? But this seems to have more to do with the UK than with Islam.

          • NoCrossNoCrescent

            I have your answer. Nothing to do with the UK. It was the Saudi funding and infiltration of UK mosques. But don’t think it will remain restricted to the UK. Saudis are ultimately going to find their way elsewhere. Starting with UK, doesn’t mean they’ll stay there. http://www.skepticink.com/nocrossnocrescent/2014/02/23/british-mosques-in-the-iron-grip-of-saudi-extremism/

          • delio mugnolo

            I see. So do we agree that “plain Islam” is just as bad as any other religion, and that the real problem is Wahhabism – and the fact that the world’s only wahhabi country is a) ridiculously rich and b) strongly supported by many western countries, including the US and Germany?

          • NoCrossNoCrescent

            Well technically it is not just wahhabism. Radicalization is growing among Shiites too-becuse Iran uses its petrodollars just like Saudis do. I don’t disagree with the concept that things may not have gone the way they did-Muslims might not end up on top of all charts listing intolerant people-but that is the reality we face today-as a result of a combination of factors (oil prices, USSR invasion in Afghanistan and Western support for mujahedeen, political Islam winning in Iran) . Bottom line is, the fact that religion itself has been influenced by historical factors still doesn’t change the fact religion influences people’s behavior negatively, even though it provides further evidence that it is a man made, not divine, institution.

          • delio mugnolo

            I mostly agree, now. But the role of Iran seems to me to be much subtler than that of Saudi Arabia. Iran is surely a very conservative place, but in my experience young Iranians are much, much, much more open then Saudis. Plus, Iranian petrodollars are probably used to establish Iran as a regional power, rather than to push some form of Islam. In many regards, Iran’s approach is based on Realpolitik. Think of Syria: right now I don’t know who are the bad guys and who are the good guys there, but I know for sure that Syria would likely turn into a theocracy should Assad be overthrown. It’s the same shift that almost was successful twenty years ago in Bosnia.

          • NoCrossNoCrescent

            Realpolitik or not, we talked earlier about the growing Islamization of Iraq, which likely would not happened without Iran’s influence on that countries Shiites. Same thing in Pakistan, where they are not the majority but continue to grow more radical. To get back to the main point, you may have been right 30 years ago, but what was probably a Saudi dominant problem is now an Islam problem, wherever it exists, to various degrees.
            http://www.skepticink.com/nocrossnocrescent/2013/07/25/rise-in-islamic-militancy-over-last-few-decades-has-more-to-do-with-high-oil-prices-that-grievances-against-the-us/

  • Artemiy

    So… Individual rights consist of alcohol use, premarital sex and homosexuality?
    I kinda expected a wider range of rights…

    • NoCrossNoCrescent

      In Islam individual “rights” are essentially things that are allowed under Sharia, such as spousal rape and polygamy.

  • Paul Burnett

    Ask the supporters of “the religion of peace” how many Catholic churches or Jewish synagogues there are in Saudi Arabia.